The Bosque Boys

I have followed the discussion over this "roster" only obliguely and have given the enumeration itself no more than a cursory reading.

Having said that, I agree with the Gardener that this is an event worth noting and serves as an interesting conversation starter (to be taken with a grain of salt).

But I also have to agree with Tocqueville that the ranking is ridiculous and, as the Gardener and Tocqueville suggest, the list itself represents a fundamental misunderstanding (even lack of respect) for conservatism.

Where are some of the people we talk about here? Bill McClay, Wendell Berry, Harvey Mansfield, et al?

The list is way too heavy on talk radio and members of the chattering classes.

How about some more legal eagles? Bork, Starr, Olsen? None of those people are more influential than Michael Savage?

And apparently Chirstopher Hitchens and Andrew Sullivan are more "influential" in their "conservatism" than any of those venerable people you name.

Farmer, you imply that the Liberal list may make more sense. Here's a conversation starter: I basically agree with their top 4 picks: Bill Clinton, Al Gore, Mark Penn, and Hillary Clinton. None of them are known for their academic work in political theory, but as players in the game, with followers and the ability to make things happen, I am comfortable with these as top 4. I have problems ranking Nancy Pelosi at number 5. I would have put Oprah there. She has a huge audience who are impacted by her.

Actually, Gardener, I meant to imply no such thing. I have paid scant (scanter) attention to the liberal list.

Looking over it quickly, the liberal list seems odd as well.

I suppose influence is a hard thing to measure. And, looking at the libs from a conservative POV, I tend to think every crazy choice makes sense. That is, I have a tendency to say: "Yeah, Al Franken, Aaron Sorkin, Stephen Colbert, etc. Those really are the influential libs. I suppose gauging influence from a hostile perch on the outside looking in is a really subjective and problematic exercise.

Farmer, Tocq, and anybody else, who are your choices for the top five most influential conservatives? And please define your terms.

Off the top of my head, the five most influential conservatives:

Influential = most powerful in terms of greatest impact on American life and the conservative movement.

1. John Roberts (Scalia, Thomas, and Alito would also be high on the list in that order).

2. George Bush. He is the most influential person in the world (period). He comes in second b/c he is a short-timer. But what he has done--and what he will do--will determine the future of America and American conservatism immensely.

3. Charles Krauthammer (George Will and David Brooks would also make the short list in that order). Well-known conservative columnists do very important work in spreading ideas.

4. Thomas Sowell (Shelby Steele, Harvey Mansfield, Bill McClay, William F. Buckley, and a host of others). Conservative intellectuals set the tone for popular thinking as articulated by journalists and politicians. Throw in here the conservative think tanks and legal scholars.

5. Rush Limbaugh (et al). Conservative talk serve as the non-coms in the conservative army, marshaling troops and staying grounded to reality.

Honorable Mentions:

Hugh Hewitt, who is a cross between pundit, force on the blogosphere, radio guy, and intellectual.

Glenn Reynolds represents the conservative blogosphere. It amazes me how many important people read the Instapundit.

*Brian Lamb--like George Washington who was never officially a Federalist, Brian Lamb will never self-identify as a conservative. In fact, I am not sure if he has a political leaning. However, his leadership at C-SPAN has done yeoman's service in giving conservative ideas a place to breathe and be seen. He has done the same for liberal ideas, but liberal ideas were not in the same need as conservative ideas in the late-1970s.

I am right now watching Heather MacDonald on C-SPAN2 arguing for the primacy of Western lit and culture in a university education. She is also a Tocqueville favorite. Add her to my intellectuals list.

Farmer, I think I know your definition of "conservative," but how do you define it briefly and explicitly?

I am using "conservative" as a catch-all for the movement (or coalition) that we generally associate with the rise of Reagan. This coalition includes cultural conservatives who see preservation of timeless truths as paramount to a healthy society. It also includes folks who value small government and liberty as expressed in the early days of the American republic. It also includes free-market conservatives who see the market as a crucial apparatus for growth and reaching societal equilibrium. Throw in some rugged individualism and libertarianism along with some old time religion--and you have a modern conservative stew.

All of those elements generally work pretty well together--although not always.

Anyhow, I don't see George Bush as especially conservative compared to many cultural conservatives. I am always amazed at how evangelical conservatives can listen to G. Gordon Liddy. Social conservatives and market conservatives with a libertarian bent often disagree on Wal-Mart and/or national immigration policy. Of course, I would consider myself a social conservative with a libertarian bent, which really gets confusing.

You get my point. But, as I say, in the end, this coalition of conservatives has much more in common with one another and are distinctly different from than the progressive coalition, which does not place high value on the traditions and values handed down over time.

We are into Chesterton these days. He offered one of my favorite definitions:

"Conservatism is the democracy of the dead."

A brief note of explanation: part of my criteria for the above was current influence and current productivity. That is, I did not consider Ronald Reagan, Freidrich Hayek, Edmund Burke, Russell Kirk, etc.

Extending the net in such a way would make for a very different list.