The Bosque Boys

The "War of Northern Aggression" was not fought over slavery but rather over the concept (which lost) that the people and the states were superior to the federal government; that the feds power derived from the people AND the states, and that if they chose to do so, the people and their state could vote to pull out of the federal union. Lincoln won and all is now history. BUT there is still the very deep feeling, the same feeling that formed this country from British colonies, that WE THE PEOPLE decide what's what and not the @#$% federal government. In that regard, anyone --absolutely ANYONE-- can grab a Rebel Battle Flag and stick it anywhere they want as a "WARNING" to everyone that they're getting real close to another revolution OR civil war as a result of certain tresspasses on personal rights and freedoms. The Klan used it, the anti-Civil Rights folks used it. ANYBODY can use it! It always says the same thing, "Watch your step Bucko! You're gettin' real close to makin' me mad!" That old flag has a real place in this country. The infrequency of its sighting is a very good indicator of how harmonious things are in this country (or NOT). That South Carolina (the home of Good Ol' FT Sumter) has it in plain sight, is wonderful! It belongs there as a warning to idiot Yankee Senators who don't know the true meaning of "We The People", or how thin the eggshells are that they're walking on.

No slavery: no Civil War. We don't fight over abstractions, but over concrete facts. In the Civil War the fact of slavery, specifically, the future of slavery in the US. That is, could slavery propagate into the West. "We the people" for the South in 1860 meant, we the white folks who want a system built on slavery.

Okie, Rue Mur and others
If I might suggest taking a look taking a look at say a 40 mile radius of where I am now sitting in the years before Ft Sumpter, the abstractions had been abandoned and the blood was flowing, and federal troops were involved.

from http://www.nps.gov/archive/...
1858: A Most Violent Year
By 1858, trouble had intensified in southeast Kansas. Radical elements from other theaters of the conflict were now converging on this area. James Montgomery became a leader of free state forces and was involved in several violent incidents.

In April of 1858, Montgomery and his men fought U. S troops stationed at Fort Scott in the battle of Paint Creek. One soldier was killed in this encounter.
In May of 1858, Montgomery and his men drove pro-slavery forces from Linn County. In retaliation, eleven free-staters were pulled out of their homes, taken to a ravine and shot down. This incident, known as the Marais des Cygnes Massacre was rumored to have been plotted in the Western Hotel.
On June 5, 1858, Montgomery and his raiders tried to burn down the Western Hotel. Several shots were fired into the hotel and surrounding homes, but the hotel was saved.
Violence, such as this, caught the governor's attention. On June 15, 1858, he held a meeting at the Western Hotel in order to settle political unrest. While this meeting nearly broke out into a riot, it was successful. Peace and quiet reigned for a brief five-month period.
Montgomery and his raiders struck again in December of 1858 when he rescued Benjamin Rice, a free-soiler. Rice had been arrested for murder and was imprisoned in the Fort Scott Hotel. Montgomery claimed that he was jailed illegally, so he came to Fort Scott to free him.

The 'cause(s)' of the first Civil War will be debated until Doom's Day. But I'll bet a wooden nickle that when the next one starts --whatever the reason (good or bad)-- the Stars n' Bars will be waving at the front of the march. And, for you folks that didn't have anyone fighting in the last little uprising, that little flag on their pick'em-up trucks and baseball caps has a little extra meaning for those who did; they don't need anymore reason than that to show it off.

Rue-Mur. Remember that the South was not as unified as mythmaking would have it. The Southern highlanders opposed the Confederacy, and many fought for the North (my ancestors). Desertion was a huge problem for southern armies, especially late in the war (for example, the Okefenokee Swamp was fought over several times; sometimes deserters controlled it, sometimes Confederate forces). And, it was the Confederacy that resorted to the draft first. In the last days of the Confederacy, consideration was even given to using slaves to fight. Yes, many many brave men fought for the South, but "the South" did not include everyone down there. Not even all white folks.

Dear Okie
True! All True! I'm not trying to restate the facts to suit my own views. Merely trying to explain to some that that little flag means many thing to many people. It's been tainted by some but even Ol'Glory has that problem. Does it mean something else entirely to the decendents of the many who were caught in the middle? Sure! But, and of this I have no doubt, it is NOT something that some perverted Yankee Senators and Black Carpetbaggers who are sucking the blood out of their own people can kill. It's in the very nature of the history and the myths of this "flag" that I say it's got a purpose for today and tomorrow. And it is, after all, a flag of rebellion (good or bad) and it's going to be around for many years --until something better replaces it, something with as much blood on it as this one. May God in His mercy continue to bless America! It's smells more and more like the 1850's every day.

Great comments.

Let me recycle this comment I posted over on the Liberty Papers post:

"I agree with much of what you say–although you must admit that slavery was at the crux of the Civil War.

"No matter, you are right that honorable men peopled the Confederate army, and we should respect and value their loyalty for family and home. We ought not to judge that conflict by our present moral sensibilities.

"However, the big problem for the flag comes in the twentieth century–not the nineteenth.

"The Confederate flag became the symbol of “massive resistance” and isolated violence. The Confederate traditionalists understood this during the 1950s and 1960s when they tried so hard in vain to keep the symbol of the fighting men of the Confederacy out of the hands of the segregationists and, much worse, the rabid racists.

"Unfortunately, they did not succeed."

One other question: WHERE IS TOCQUEVILLE?

"And it is, after all, a flag of rebellion (good or bad) and it's going to be around for many years --until something better replaces it, something with as much blood on it as this one."

Something already has replaced it, Rue. Preceded it, actually. If I have need to display a flag of rebellion, I'm going to stick with the stars and stripes over the stars and bars.

Also, the fact that a symbol such as a flag has "blood on it" does not mean that the symbol has been sanctified and justified. I'm not going to fly a hammer and sickle flag over my house, I'm not going to get a swastika tattoo on my back, I'm not going to put a cresent moon bumper sticker on my car, because I don't agree with the precepts which these (all equally bloody) symbols stand for.

Not all "history and heritage" is something to be proud of. That's why it's called "progress".

As a native resident of South Carolina, I couldn't give two %*&#% what you, Biden, or Dodd think. It is our state and we will fly the flag if we please. We already took it off the capital dome and now the NAACP is crying about it being on the statehouse grounds DESPITE the black caucus in the SC legislature agreeing to it. If you "ain't" from South Carolina please quit whining, and also remember to visit our beautiful beaches! (preferrably Mrytle)

P.S. this argument has been debated to death. Both sides are right. The war was about slavery and states rights. The flag means some things to some people and other things to others. My advice to the flag haters is to embrace the flag thereby dilluting its negative connotations or just ignore it. Otherwise, you are going to spend the rest of your life being pissed off because many southern people are very proud of it and in South Carolina it now takes a 2/3 super majority in the legislature to remove it from the statehouse grounds; so its not going away any time soon.

Thanks for the comments, "Southerner." I appreciate your concilatory tone in the addendum and your loyalty to the Palmetto state in your original.

I agree with the ludicrousness of Biden & Dodd pontificating on what the SC leg ought to do.

I agree that we are beating a dead horse to some degree here.

I even feel the tragic sense of the loss in re the flag.

But the suggestion that "flag haters" embrace the flag is not realistic. Granted the Civil War is a complicated story with many sides, but the thought of African Americans wrapping themselves in the flag that defended slavery (no matter how brave the soldiers) is just not reasonable.

You must offer another alternative.

My g,g,g grandfather fought as an Ensign at Bradywine for the same principles that my many ancestors did in the WBTS. I am a 100% service related disabled Vietnam veteran with eight years in-country, and I'm sick of you people bad mouthing my ancestors. Read this, boys.......

http://wwwwakeupamericans-s...
The War of Northern Aggression...?
Day by day, week by week, month by month, left wing leadership is taking more and more Southerners into the mindset of "we don't need this bullshit."

"and I'm sick of you people bad mouthing my ancestors. Read this, boys......."

Well your ancestors spawned the greatest conflagration this nation has ever seen. Your ancestors fought and died for the right to own other human beings. Your ancestors turned against the United States of America and tried to destroy it. Your ancestors who fought for the Confederacy were this nation's greatest traitors and your flag is the greatest symbol of those traitorous acts. This isn't solely a South Carolina question, this is a national question: Whether or not we're going to allow the symbol of the most destructive force to ever hit this nation should be honored. It's utterly disgusting to me that the many of the same folks who call current anti-war proponents "traitors", refer to them as "enemies of the state" because they speak out against governmental actions they disagree with, and in the same breath honor the flag of disunion and hate as a symbol of pride. What hubris, what utter hypocrisy. What a stain that rag and its heritage are on the conscience of our great nation.

for all of you supposed experts on the history of MY nation chew on this. South Carolina, the first state to secede did so after a TARIFF dispute. If the war was really so much about slavery, why did the emancipation proclamation only free southern slaves. Yankees, including Grant, were allowed to keep their slaves until the passage of the 13th ammendment. The original 13th ammendment which was never voted on by the southern legislatures was a constitutional ammendment guaranteeing the right to own slave. If the war was about slavery, all the south had to do was to pass this ammendment and slavery would have been protected. I can talk till im blue in the face and you people will never see the truth, but I do present these facts in the hope that someone will read this and learn some actual facts. as for the fellow that said that my "rag" is a stain on the consience of America, what about the forced migration and wholesale slaughter of entire tribes of Native Americans? Maybe we should put your rag in a museum, we could sit it right next to flags of other genocidal countries. I am sick and tired of you people bashing my country and the men and women who died to protect it. I wouldnt spit on a federal war monument, dont spit on my confederate heritage.
Dio Vindici Resurgam
Confederate Southern Nationalist,
William Lee

Yankee Vet

You obviously were taught in our government schools. By the way, enlighten me about your "vet" annotation. We seceded from the voluntary Union. The tyrant Lincoln forced us back in. The actual Cause of the War was Lincoln's invasion of Virginia. Period. Pray tell why West Virginia was admitted to the Union as a SLAVE state after the Emancipation Proclamation? Why weren't the slaves freed in the Yankee states until December 1865 eight month's after Lee's surrender? The true flag of hate and dripping with blood of our American Indians is the old S&S......Aren't you proud of her?

Easy there, all you Johnny Rebs and Billy Yanks.

Let's don't start shooting at one another again.

In re slavery:

Unreconstructed:

My thesis (and this is important):

The North did not begin the war to end slavery, but the South began the war to protect slavery.

Do you disagree with that? If not slavery, why? If not slavery, why does this all happen in the aftermath of the election of 1860? What was the real issue?

As the Gardener said early on: what right did the Southern states want so desperately to protect?

Why?

I still think we need to consider that teh fighting began a few years before, In Kansas and Missouri, and it very clearly was about slavery. Each side killing and terrorizing in hopes of getting Kansas admitted to the Union on 'their' side.

Interesting history discussion. However, there is no history coming from Yankee Vet, just opinion. I don’t think he knows much. I feel sorry for such simple thinking. He’d make a good Disney story writer. Then again its not all his fault, his opinion is what we are basically taught from an early age. Ignoring other facts and such simple thinking as an adult is however unforgivable.

I was just thinking of today’s Department of Foreign Affairs of the United States of America compared to it back in the 1700’s and early 1800’s. Back then it’s entire focus was all about protecting the slave trade and protecting the U.S. interest in it. The Stars and Strips is no banner without shame. There are many many examples.

Also think about after the so called Civil war. The U.S. Government promptly formed regiments of colored troops to go west and kill off the Indians. These buffalo soldiers (with their new found freedom) helped annihilate upwards to a million Plains Indians. After all, it was our manifest destiny. Not to worry anyone’s Disney perceptions though, in the 1920’s a head count found that there were still about 2,900 hundred Plains Indians left.

Next time you bash the Confederate flag or put your hand over your heart to the pledge of elegance thank about it a little. Politial correctness is mind numbing.

Mark Lamb. My opinion. Measured by an absolute standard, God's righteousness, America has been a rebellious house, sadly wanting. We have been and are a sinful nation. Measured by a relative standard, the conduct of other nations throughout history, we are pretty good. The one big plus we have had is our history of progress in refining the definition of "liberty." For example, that this week we observed MLK day and our nation is different, and better in this respect, than when I was born 50 years ago. Since I don't have a perfect nation to move to, I am thankful to be here.

In re the Indian blood on the USA's hands as brought up by unreconstructed and echoed by Brock:

In studying logic we learn that weakening your opponent's position does not validate your own arguement. Assuredly, the United States (the ENTIRE US government, to include the South and Southern leaders such as Jackson) are to blame for the atrocities committed against Native Americans. However, this point does not strengthen your arguement regarding the Confederate flag.

Let's stick to the topic, guys.

I'm all for a seperate post concerning the Trail of Tears,disassociated from the North-South debate, and I know for a fact that at least one of the hosts of this website is a Jacksonian-era historian, so maybe in the future..?

Also, Brock and Yankee vet, and other unnoted vets, as an active-duty military member, I salute your service, and am glad that we can, from all parts of the US and with all political views, serve together.

Why thank you Okie Gardner, I think your on to something. We don’t judge the U.S.A. of yesterday by today’s standards, but we do judge the C.S.A. by today’s standards. So sad for our children. The South (and the North) would have been just fine with out a Union victory.

My ancestors came here from England in the early 1600’s. So this is just a debate to me. What the American Revolution truly fought over is also an intrigue of mine. A silly tea tax? The stamp act? Taxation without representation?

By 1861 the Federal Government had become a sectional government. The South, with only 30% of the population was paying 90% of the taxes with only 10% being returned. As an American patriot wouldn’t you fight as well? Everyone including white abolitionist considered themselves superior to blacks back then.

I hate to see slanderous lies about what Robert E Lee and his army fought for.

Folks, is it amazing how many of you have in your knowledgeable possession the bronze threads of partial truths. If I dumped all your words into a single hopper, I could, so I believe, put together a single tapestry of the truth about the cause and nature of the War Between the States.

As a professor on the subject of the Late Unpleasantness, I am recommending that you all supplement your education a bit further with the writings of John C. Calhoun, Daniel Webster, Jefferson Davis, Mr. Lincoln, Admiral Raphael Semmes and Mr. Alexander Stephens. Within these writings, you will better grasp the nature of the War and the essence of the Confederacy.

In summation, I would like to draw your attention to this fact: there were many free blacks who fought under the Star and Bars and actually did carry the Rebel Battle Flag into combat. Southern states' militias were the beneficiaries of these brave black soldiers. Also, I suggest a book you should find most enlightening: "Black Slaveowners - Free Black Slave Master in South Carolina, 1790 - 1860" by Larry Koger.

So, read a bit and further, reflect and expand your understanding of this most serious matter and let's meet back here at a later time and have a truly meaningful discussion.

Your most obedient servant,

D.N. McKay, professor and continual student of the War Between the States and matters dealing with the Reconstruction.

Martian, first let me say that I have no need to weaken the opposition, for the argument against my confederate heritage is weak enough. secondly the point over the indians is exactly on topic for this discussion because the major point most of the opponents of my flag like to make are the "racist undertones" it represents. If my heritage can be judged based on one dark point, then why cant yours? the point I have tried to make here is that banning my flag due to slavery would be equivalent to banning the union flag due to the massacres executed under its name.

I'm the mixed-race descendent of an American Indian Confederate veteran. Are ya'll aware that the Cherokee, Creek, Seminole nations (just to name a few) supported the south? Stand Watie was the first Indian general in history. Thousands of Hispanics served from Texas, as well as Jews and yes, even blacks, such as Virginia cavalryman Dick Poplar.

The official flag of the KKK is the U.S. flag, not the Confederate battle flag. The Aryan Nation flies the Christian flag. Should we ban those flags too?

I protested against the KKK in June at Antietam and in September at Gettysburg with other Confederate reenactors. Hate groups do NOT represent Confederate heritage, southerners, or Americans.

Helaina Hinson
Johnston Co, NC

Great comments all.

I invite you to read and comment on my latest post, which briefly confronts the question of slavery as a cause of the Civil War in a more direct manner: http://bosqueboys.com/index...

Let's continue this provocative discussion in that venue.

For unreconstructed:

You say:

"If my heritage can be judged based on one dark point...,"

Your heritage?

Comparing Flags: The Confederate flag is the product of a four year aberration in American history. The American flag subsumes centuries of ideals, history and culture. The American flag represents a panoramic mosaic. Over time, the USA has committed many painfully heinous acts--but the nation must be judged on a different standard than a failed rebellion.

In discussing a would-be nation with a four year history, one dark point is a major drawback.